Shagrat killed during skirmish

[Tbiesty]

Does the game text of Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol trigger if he is killed during his skirmish?

[ket_the_jet]

If a character is removed from a skirmish, that character is considered to have lost that skirmish.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

But the real question is why are you using Shagrat?!
-wtk

[Not a Zombie]

does his action come into play before he is discarded though?

[Tbiesty]

If he lost to a damage +2 character, or was exhausted then wounded by a skirmish event, or overwhelmed...

I'm trying to clarify whether his text (which is optional) still triggers, even though him being killed and placed in the discard pile (which is mandatory) actually happens first.  Is his text still active even though he is already in the discard pile?

[MuadDib85]

I'd guess his text would activate before he is placed in the discard pile (or on his way to the discard pile).

I know it is worded differently, but I think it would work similarly to With All Possible Speed.

[Tbiesty]

With All Possible Speed does not get put in the discard pile, so it is definitely active the whole time.  With Shagrat, his text is optional, so by the rules it would happen after the mandatory action of him being discarded.

For example, if Shagrat was killed while skirmishing Isildur, Sword-Bearer, the Free Peoples player could use Isildur's text after Shagrat is killed, since both actions are mandatory (and the Free Peoples player chooses the order).  So what that would mean is Shagrat is killed and placed in the discard pile, then the Free Peoples player uses Isildur's text, then the Shadow player could use Shagrat's optional text (while he is in the discard pile)?

[MuadDib85]

Or use Treebeard, ES as an example.

His text activates when he wins a skirmish, right? Well it also activates before any minions are placed in the discard pile, effectively giving Treebeard a damage bonus if the only minion in play is the one he is skirmishing.

[Tbiesty]

Or use Treebeard, ES as an example.

His text activates when he wins a skirmish, right? Well it also activates before any minions are placed in the discard pile, effectively giving Treebeard a damage bonus if the only minion in play is the one he is skirmishing.

In the case of Treebeard, ES, because his text is mandatory, the Free Peoples player can choose to use his text before or after the minion he is skirmishing takes the mandatory wound.

[ket_the_jet]

If you are doing Shagrat's skirmish, and he loses the skirmish or gets discarded otherwise, his text activates.
-wtk

[Tbiesty]

But if he looses a skirmish by means of a strength fight, then I would say before placing the wound for loosing the skirmish, you would use shagrat's text (if you choose because it has the word 'may').

I'm not seeing how that conclusion is supported by the rules.

From the rules:
"All required actions responding to a particular trigger are performed before any optional actions. After all such required actions have resolved, players may perform optional actions responding to that same trigger using the action procedure."

If Shagrat is already in the discard pile, can his text be used to respond to the skirmish he lost?

Would anyone else like to provide some input?

[MuadDib85]

I removed my post for a reason. Ket has it right. It really is simple.

[Cw0rk]

If Shagrat is already in the discard pile, can his text be used to respond to the skirmish he lost?

Shagrat lost his skirmish before being placed in the discard pile.

[Tbiesty]

Shagrat lost his skirmish before being placed in the discard pile.

Correct, but his text, which is optional, cannot be activated until all mandatory actions have occurred.

Sorry guys, I'm just trying to go over any rules (or cards) that may need clarification.  And this was one that I didn't think was clear.

Here is the situation I think I need explained:

1) Shagrat loses a skirmish to Isildur, Sword-Bearer (who is damage +2).

Mandatory Actions:

2) Shagrat takes 3 wounds, which kills him, so he is placed in the discard pile.

3) The Isidur's text activates, which is used to heal Aragorn.

Optional Actions:

4) Shagrat's text activates, which is used to exert Aragorn.  (Even though he is in the discard pile?)

[ket_the_jet]

You guys are dumbasses. Where is Sam when you need him?

Skirmish actions.
Skirmish resolved.
Response actions to skirmish resolution.
"Each time" actions resolved.
Characters discarded or placed in dead pile, if applicable.
-wtk