Unofficial Rulebook Discussion #13 (Aug 25 - Aug 28) -- Each Shadow Phase

[Tbiesty]

This discussion and ruling is part of the series of discussions and rulings for an "Unofficial Rulebook" as described here.

This discussion will be open from Aug 25, 2010 - Aug 28, 2010.
The outcome of this discussion and ruling will be added to the "Unofficial Rulebook".

Discussion #13:

Do Vile Pit and Spurred to Battle trigger during another Shadow player's shadow phase?  (previous discussion)

Option 1:
No.  These cards should be clarified to mean "your Shadow phase", just like every other Shadow card in the game that mentions Shadow phase.

Option 2:
Yes.  These cards circumvent normal gameplay rules and allow you to take actions (such as adding twilight and playing minions) during another player's Shadow phase.

[Witchkingx5]

I'm sure Vile Pit was made to work like that, this is why "each Shadow Phase" is on the card. Not sure about Spurred to Battle, though... but as for gameplay-intened-thinking, I'd rather say that you should clarify it to "Your Shadow Phase" on Spurred to Battle. Otherwise, this would be the Multiplayer condition to use. Vile Pit is fine in Multiplayer.

[Tbiesty]

Since Vile Pit is from the last couple sets, we know that play-testing/grammar-checking was limited, so I'm not convinced that 3-player games were considered with Vile Pit.  Plus, the general rules of gameplay is that a Shadow player only can play things during his own Shadow phase; every other Shadow card in the game follows this rule.  I find it more likely that this was a "gametext wording" oversight rather than explicitly allowing another Shadow player to play Shadow cards before you can during your own Shadow phase.

That's my current thought anyway.  I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on this to see which way we should go.

[hrcho]

Another thing that makes me think that is the fact that the "Clarification" in the CRD is the same wording that is already on the card; what was "clarified"? Was the author of the CRD supposed to clarify it to say "each of your Shadow phases...", but accidentally copied the existing text?

The thing clarified is in the second part of the text where on the card says: Discard this condition, whereas the cards itself is a possession.

I think that wherever it says "each Shadow phase" it means each Shadow phase. If that makes certain cards too powerful, that's a mistake with the card. Some kind of action should be taken, but before we condemn every card with the phrasing "each Shadow phase", I think we should list those cards and see if the required action should be an errata of 1 card or complete change of phrasing.

Note that Spurred to Battle says THE shadow phase, which makes me think it means the shadow phase of the player who played Spurred to Battle.

So, not counting Spurred to Battle, these are the cards I found with the phrasing "each Shadow phase":

Vile Pit (17C118)
Breeding Pit of Isengard (15U188)
Dimrill Dale (1U350)
Great Chasm (2U118)

Also note that 3 out 4 of those cards are sites and there is no problem with their text, which leaves only Vile Pit. If anyone else finds any other card with the phrasing in question, please post it.

As for the Vile Pit, I think the wording should be changed to "your Shadow phase". It is indeed strange that a card would allow you to play minions outside of your shadow phase and I don't think that was the intention, especially given the fact that the card is common while the effect is unique.

[Tbiesty]

The thing clarified is in the second part of the text where on the card says: Discard this condition, whereas the cards itself is a possession.

Ah, I see it now.  Thanks!

[mardukra]

So for those sites, each shadow player may use the site's text?

[hrcho]

So for those sites, each shadow player may use the site's text?

Yes... and the text of those sites is not in question. Intention was clear.

[Elessar's Socks]

While it's possible these were oversights, I don't see rules issues with them, so I'd leave them as they are.

[Tbiesty]

From the rulebook:

"During each player's Shadow phase, that player may perform Shadow actions in any order, including playing most Shadow cards."

Vile Pit and Spurred to Battle could be interpreted, because of poor wording, to allow a Shadow player to perform a Shadow action during another player's Shadow phase.  I don't think this is intended, nor should it be allowed.  Clarifying these two cards to say "...your Shadow phase..." would eliminate the confusion.

[hrcho]

I still think Spurred to Battle doesn't go with that group. The cards says THE shadow phase. There is only one Shadow Phase in which it takes effect and that is the Shadow Phase of the player who owns Spurred to Battle.

[Tbiesty]

I still think Spurred to Battle doesn't go with that group. The cards says THE shadow phase. There is only one Shadow Phase in which it takes effect and that is the Shadow Phase of the player who owns Spurred to Battle.

If THE Shadow phase does mean the same as YOUR Shadow phase, I agree.  I'm just looking to clarify that; doesn't hurt anything to clarify it.

[hrcho]

If THE Shadow phase does mean the same as YOUR Shadow phase, I agree.  I'm just looking to clarify that; doesn't hurt anything to clarify it.

How do you know? Maybe someone is in great pain right now because you want to clarify it.   

[mardukra]

I agree that Vile Pit and Spurred to Battle may need to be treated differently.  And why bother posting if you don't care?  These are multi-player issues.  I like the idea of spurred to battle's THE shadow phase referring to YOUR shadow phase.  As for vile pit, it's prob ok as it's worded.  The cost seems steep enough that it's probably not overpowered and it's kinda neat to have a shadow card that can mess with another shadow player  

I take that back.  It would be quite a game changer if your fellow shadow player took a chunk of twilight each site before you could touch it and cycling his hand at the same time.

[Tbiesty]

I take that back.  It would be quite a game changer if your fellow shadow player took a chunk of twilight each site before you could touch it and cycling his hand at the same time.

Exactly! That is the big reason to clarify Vile Pit.  That would be so unfair.

[Tbiesty]

Option 1 it is.   The "Unofficial Rulebook" has been updated with these clarifications.