To Bring to Everyone's Attention...

[FM]

Not to mention, unbanning certain cards might make THAT card be played less. For instance, if the ALREADY banned Galadriel were to be unbanned... perhaps more decks would use HER instead? Perhaps it'd be a reason to pack hate and CRUSH decks playig her? Just some random thoughts.

[Elessar's Socks]

Remember, you're trying to start a PC, do not forget what the "P" stands for, so "If you don't like it, simply play a different format" argument might not be the brightest way to go about this, otherwise you risk rupturing the community, and having multiple PCs starting due to a lack in method, and that would both ruin the plans of every PC, not to mention probably kill the game for good.

Does this project actually aspire to be a PC? IMO that gives too much control to the community at large (some who don't want any changes to happen), when I'm thinking those involved should at least be in agreement on what basic changes to expect (banning cards--even if temporarily, introducing virtual cards, etc.).

[FM]

FM, does it need to tick all boxes when it comes to the list your provided?
[...]
Again, I subscribe FM's contribution, maybe a bunch of volenteers can make various decks with banned cards and play a series of games, so we can see with indeed hard data see how things work.

No, those are just general guidelines, things that might jump to attention, although MOST of the will be present if the card is actually worth banning, rather than simply restricting, errata'ing or leaving as a powerful card and move on.
Also, the idea is not to make decks with banned cards, but rather, organize as large an event as possible, to see IF banned cards pop up, how dominant they are and if the metagame warps during a following event so that everyone is playing the card or mainly against it, making it worthwhile to study the possibility of a ban.

[Kralik]

Regarding LR, somewhat conflicting reports:

Results from Worlds when LR was legal: Each Deck from the Top 16 either played LR or was anti-LR.

Galadriel, LR didn't dominate when she was legal.  At the worlds where she was legal she was only in 4 of the top 16 decks.  She was in the winning deck, but only for the final confrontation between the winner and runner-up; Emir hadn't played her on any previous day and she was largely a meta call because he was extremely confident that Josh would play his besieger deck from the previous 2 days.  She was definitely good, but it took people a while to realize just how good she was and once they did she got banned so even when she was around she wasn't the only competitive choice.  Man-Elf and Knights were both as good as Elves at worlds that year (man-elf was a lot more heavily played) and Gandalf Gondor was as good as elves once Shadows came out.

Still, 1/4 of the top decks using her and others based on countering her... that IS quite a balance sway.

[jcb213]

Regarding LR, somewhat conflicting reports:

Results from Worlds when LR was legal: Each Deck from the Top 16 either played LR or was anti-LR.

Galadriel, LR didn't dominate when she was legal.  At the worlds where she was legal she was only in 4 of the top 16 decks.  She was in the winning deck, but only for the final confrontation between the winner and runner-up; Emir hadn't played her on any previous day and she was largely a meta call because he was extremely confident that Josh would play his besieger deck from the previous 2 days.  She was definitely good, but it took people a while to realize just how good she was and once they did she got banned so even when she was around she wasn't the only competitive choice.  Man-Elf and Knights were both as good as Elves at worlds that year (man-elf was a lot more heavily played) and Gandalf Gondor was as good as elves once Shadows came out.

Still, 1/4 of the top decks using her and others based on countering her... that IS quite a balance sway.

If you use the internet archive you can access the old www.dgma.com from that time period and you can view the decks for yourself.  Emir Delic (world champion) used Ninja Gollum and Rohan for days 2 and 3 which loses terribly to Galadriel LR and he still made top 2 and then won.  Josh Cornewll-Mott (runner up) used Man-Elf and Besiegers (with 0 copies of Terrible as the Dawn) on days 2 and 3 and made top 2.  Both of them played shadows that get destroyed by Galadriel LR and neither of them teched against Galadriel LR and they were the 2 finalists.

Most of the decks in the top 16 were not anti-LR.  I'll pull up the actual lists tonight when I get home and summarize them here.

There really just weren't that many people playing Galadriel LR overall at worlds, and the decks from the top 16 did not appear to be teched to beat her.  I don't think people realized how powerful she was until after worlds once Emir used her for the final game (because the top 2 players were allowed to change decks for day 4).

[jcb213]

I used the internet archive to pull up the top 16 decks from worlds that year.  Worlds 2004 was the biggest tournament ever held with what we know as the official Movie Block.  Here is a summary:

1.  Rohan / Ninja Gollum
2.  Man Elf / Besiegers

3-4 (in no particular order)
Knights / Besiegers
Man Elf / Twilight Witch King with Morgul Orcs

5-8 (in no particular order)
Man Elf / Mixed Archery (southrons & uruks) – no conditions or possessions
Gandalf Gondor / Uruk Trackers – no conditions other than greed
Man Elf / Dunland
Elves with Galadriel LR & Eowyn LoI / Morgul Orc Swarm

9-16 (in no particular order)
Dauntless Hunter Hobbits / Southron Mumaks
Elves with Galadriel LR & Gimli & wounding / Southron Archery
Gondor Noble Leaders with Galadriel LR / Besiegers
Man Elf / 2 burden Easterlings
Elven Telepathy with Galadriel LR & Gandalf / Moria with Trolls & Sauron
Rohan / Moria Swarm
Shire Countryside Skirmish / Threat Nazgul
Dwarves / Twilight Nazgul


You'll note that Galadriel, LR wasn't in the top 2 decks, wasn't in the top 4 decks and was only in 1 of the top 8 decks.  Man Elf on the other hand made up half of the top 2, half of the top 4, and half of the top 8.  She was in 3 decks in the bottom half of the top 16.

Galadriel LR was in 4 total decks (none of which were the same deck - she allowed for diversity) while Man Elf (almost identical lists for it) was 5 decks from the top 16.

You'll also notice that none of the Besieger decks (3 of them) bothered to play Terrible as the Dawn even though it's super easy to put in.  A few decks didn't play conditions or possessions, but none of them were specifically teched for Galadriel LR.  So, when someone claims "Each deck from the top 16 either contained LR or was anti-LR" that just isn't true.  In fact, 10-12 of the shadows from the top 16 are terrible against Elves with Galadriel LR.

Another thing to note is that almost all of these decks were also the decks these players used on day 2 (sometimes with one or two cards different) to make day 3, so they were playing them against the entire field.  So, the top 16 at worlds that year weren't super concerned about Galadriel LR

Don't get me wrong, I still think LR is a broken card, but people need to stop quoting worlds 2004 as evidence of that.  If people want to use worlds 2004 as evidence they'd be better using it to argue for some of the key cards from Man-Elf to be x-listed.  In fact, something Decipher noted when they added Sam SoH to the x-list when Shadows came out was that he was on the watch list for some time for being too versatile and he was present in 15 of the day 3 worlds decks (sometimes 2 copies) and the only deck he wasn't in featured Sam Great Elf Warrior (Dauntless Hobbits).  So really, worlds 2004 provides strong evidence that if you errata or ban cards from Movie Block Sam SoH should be one of them (please note that I don't want to do that either, I'm just presenting data from the biggest tournament ever held with the official Movie Block x-list).

I saved all the lists in a word document so I'd be happy to post them if people are interested.

[ramolnar]

Galadriel LR was in 4 total decks (none of which were the same deck - she allowed for diversity) while Man Elf (almost identical lists for it) was 5 decks from the top 16.

... snip ...

So, when someone claims "Each deck from the top 16 either contained LR or was anti-LR" that just isn't true.  In fact, 10-12 of the shadows from the top 16 are terrible against Elves with Galadriel LR.

Another thing to note is that almost all of these decks were also the decks these players used on day 2 (sometimes with one or two cards different) to make day 3, so they were playing them against the entire field.  So, the top 16 at worlds that year weren't super concerned about Galadriel LR

Thank you for doing this. It's been over 6 years since that tournament. Between this, and Decktech old decks, I can recall a lot more.
None of the top decks played Corsairs! This is crazy! How many Derufin were there? I also recall seeing Shadowplay and Unheeded, because that do fairly well against Corsairs. I know the strategy sections for 2004 top decks explicitly refer to Corsairs, so they were thought about.

Honestly, the format is stronger now, with far fewer players, than it was then. There were very few deck sources, and they had a heavy influence on the meta. For instance, Galadriel LR went crazy after the event, when people saw her go to town on Day 4. As you say, she shuts down most shadows, but people didn't go to her.

From what I recall, Reflections brought in alternate ringbearers, and everyone played with them, particularly Dwarves because Aggression was legal. Free Draw 4s were pretty crazy, and Durin could hold his own against Peter Jackson (Castamir of Umbar).
In response, shadows switched to corruption and "semi-corruption" decks (Gollum, Nazgul Orcs, Easterlings), because alternate RBs don't enjoy them. Gimli has a lot of trouble with Morgul Brute. That brought in lots of Sams. But except for that, things were open at the time, which show in the results.

[jcb213]

Thank you for doing this. It's been over 6 years since that tournament. Between this, and Decktech old decks, I can recall a lot more.
None of the top decks played Corsairs! This is crazy! How many Derufin were there? I also recall seeing Shadowplay and Unheeded, because that do fairly well against Corsairs. I know the strategy sections for 2004 top decks explicitly refer to Corsairs, so they were thought about.

Honestly, the format is stronger now, with far fewer players, than it was then. There were very few deck sources, and they had a heavy influence on the meta. For instance, Galadriel LR went crazy after the event, when people saw her go to town on Day 4. As you say, she shuts down most shadows, but people didn't go to her.

From what I recall, Reflections brought in alternate ringbearers, and everyone played with them, particularly Dwarves because Aggression was legal. Free Draw 4s were pretty crazy, and Durin could hold his own against Peter Jackson (Castamir of Umbar).
In response, shadows switched to corruption and "semi-corruption" decks (Gollum, Nazgul Orcs, Easterlings), because alternate RBs don't enjoy them. Gimli has a lot of trouble with Morgul Brute. That brought in lots of Sams. But except for that, things were open at the time, which show in the results.

Yeah, no corsairs at all.  Corsairs and Morgul Orcs dominated at Origins that year right after Reflections came out, but people found ways to deal with corsairs and I think since they were good people assumed they would be heavily teched against.  But, I have no idea how many other people played Corsairs since we only have lists for the top 16.

Dwarves also dominated Origins that year, so much that Aggression was banned before worlds, which is why there is only one Dwarf fellowship from the top 16 (because without aggression they weren't nearly as good until they got help in Shadows and Black Rider).

The alternate ring-bearers were popular off and on, but Frodo was still the most used ring-bearer.  Looking at the top 16 decks, 12 played Frodo ring-bearer,  2 played Isildur ring-bearer, 1 played Boromir ring-bearer, and 1 played Gimli ring-bearer.

Sam SoH was always popular starting with set 1 since he could remove burdens and then be a chump blocker or he could serve as a back-up ring-bearer when necessary.  It's pretty rare to build a deck in movie block without Sam SoH in it, he is probably the most used companion in the format.

I'll posted the decks when I get a chance this weekend.